Albuquerque, New Mexico
July 2007
Richard C. Hoagland is an investigator who gained fame for his claims that NASA has been covering up various space facts such as the truth about the Apollo moon landings, the “ face on Mars”, etc. Hoagland has worked as a space museum curator, a NASA Consultant and science advisor to CBS News.
New book: Dark Mission
Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA
PH: I never heard that Kennedy had a meeting in Vienna with Khrushchev.RH: It was the first big summit.
PH: Was it just Khrushchev?
RH: Yes. It was a superpower summit between Khrushchev and the newly elected president. Remember, he’d just been elected a few months before.
PH: When did Khrushchev put the deal on the table?
RH: Later. About a year later.
PH: We’re assuming they had this conversation?
RH: We know it now because of his son, who is a scholar and historian at Brown University in Providence RI. In this conversation with his father about a joint space venture that he revealed that unbeknownst to the whole world,
they discussed a number of issues. One of the issues that Kennedy brought up was, would you like to go to the moon with us? This is truly extraordinary. It’s always been a race with the Russians to get there first. You’re either racing to beat them, to demonstrate to the world that the Capitalist system is superior to the Communist system, or you’re going there to get something really important that you want to share with your worst enemies because what’s there is bigger than what separates you.
PH: How do you explain that?
RH: I think he knew what was there. The Apollo missions were set up to go and get their stuff.
PH: But why would Khrushchev do it?
RH: Because we were facing the Russians in a nuclear war that would have destroyed the human race. If you’re going to change the paradigm, you need a big stick, something that’s bigger than everybody.
PH: Did Khrushchev admire Kennedy afterward?
RH: He rejected the offer. Kennedy kept doing it, up until his death. He kept offering it again and again.
PH: And this was after the Cuban Missile Crisis, Khrushchev had some respect for Kennedy.
RH: The plan was like this. In September of 1963 Kennedy brought James Webb into the Oval Office and he proposed the joint space venture publicly. That’s on tape. We have that from the official Kennedy archives. No one understands what that means. They don’t get that this completely undercut the entire reason for Apollo. That it was no race. There was a bigger reason to go.
PH: Those guys got really angry with Kennedy because --
RH: Representative Albert Thomas, who was head of the Appropriations Committee, was furious. Basically accused him of being a Commie and of giving away everything. This was in September. He goes on record and he makes a speech to the UN. Public record. See I remember this, because I thought at the time that it was kind of strange. September 17, 1963.
Anyway, he makes a public statement, and the people who were most against it were the American press and the Congress. The Russian press and the Russian officials said nothing. There was no comment at all about it. Nothing!
PH: What about the intelligence community? How did they like it?
RH: Nobody here liked it. But the press was basically against it.
PH: How much press would you get out of the Soviet Union? There wasn’t much press there.
RH: There was none. So then, 12th, according to Khrushchev’s son, or we fast forward to November 11th Khrushchev suddenly decided to accept. And I looked at Mike Bara and we were putting all this together because I’m the one who realized what was happening, and I said there had to have been some specific meeting that made Khrushchev change his mind.
PH: And you found it.
RH: And I found it. On the 11th, an unmanned spaceship to Mars failed and he obviously got very mad at his guys and said you idiots, you can’t do anything right. I’m going to take up Kennedy’s offer because we’ve got to get there. Together. And from the end of the current crisis, which was October of 1962, they had all those months to build confi dence in each other as people they could trust. And he finally said yes.
PH: The fact that it was the eleventh, whenever I see eleven in anything, the fact that the Apollo landed, or any kind of eleven, is that out there, Richard?
RH: Eleven-eleven is another code for 19.5. I could show you mathematically how it works. After Kennedy’s bill in that appropriation cycle for the national budget came up for review, this Congressman Albert Thomas who, you’ll see in the book, winking at Lyndon Johnson on the plane right after Johnson was on the plane with Jackie on the program.
PH: Right after he took the oath.
RH: Right after he took the oath. And with Congressman Thomas grinning at him.
PH: You’ve got that picture?
RH: It’s in the book. It’s the one taken right after the swearing-in ceremony. He’s winking at Johnson. We did it. We got him. He introduced a bill that no NASA appropriation from that day forward has had any provision for the Soviet Union . So yeah, it was a discourtesy. You only tell these guys what they need to know to go and do their job as good soldiers.
PH: James Wood, does he know?
RH: James Wood was a 33rd degree Mason. He’s part of the crowd that wanted it all hushed up.
PH: so the Masons, the Scottish -
RH: The Scottish Rite Masons.
PH: Okay, because you have to make that clear. And you also said it was something about ruins on the moon, like the southern Masonry --
RH: The southern district.
PH: Southern district of Masonry. They’re the ones that know about this.
RH: Buzz Aldrin took their flag to the moon. He gave it to them in a ceremony; we’ve got the pictures in the book. Ph. Paola: You mentioned that the 60th anniversary of the Roswell crash is
significant.
RH: This is the sixtieth year of Roswell. Roswell is like the benchmark of ET studies.
PH: The benchmark?
RH: Yeah, of course. Kenneth Arnold, sixtieth year of Roswell 2007…it’s not a coincidence that the book with the memo from Dallas this year that came out three weeks ago. Anyway – so sixty, yeah, I was expecting something interesting. In this sixtieth year, we have all these little indicators that something is coming, like O’Hare.
PH: You think O’Hare was our stuff , possibly.
RH: It’s all about revealing something. Not necessarily revealing the truth, but revealing something. Remember, you can make our stuff look like their stuff. People don’t notice our stuff, they don’t know that we have stuff. They’ve been kept in the dark. Even Art Bell was kind of amusing, because he sees this thing floating out over him in Verona, over the valley, this huge
triangle, and wonders – is it theirs or ours? So when I saw this stuff appear on You Tube, Secret Apollo Missions and all that, it’s very simple now. It’s a secret space program operating under hyperdimensional physics. Which means antigravity. That’s how you take forty people to the moon. So someone, whoever wrote this story, is connecting it to the whole Masonic thing. He uses it, in the opening sequence of it --
PH: He’s connecting it?
RH: He’s connecting it. Deliberately. That’s why he picked the name Rutledge? Remember, I came out and I said his name is a code, which is why Robin looked it up. We found out this whole business about Armstrong, and the Rutledge, and Irwin. What does he complain about? That there’s Apollo 15 soundtrack mixed into this Apollo 20 footage. And that’s referred back to
Irwin. It’s all codes, codes, and codes. The bottom line is, it says the Masons have been running a secret space program. It used to be NASA, but it’s now moved off in other directions, and NASA is basically over. NASA is obsolete. That is merely window dressing. It’s a diversion, it’s not real, and that’s not where the real power is. That’s what this whole thing is trying to say. This is validated by completely separate research, which is in the book.
PH: So NASA, from now on, will be that separate group.
RH: Yes, but it been there for a long time. As soon as they developed antigravity as a working, functioning technology, which I think was back when we saw the STS 48, then when you had the shuttle and it’s already over Australia and they photographed this stuff going incredible g-forces and all that. Around 19.5. Then the one over ICF-80, with the stuff over Chile, which was again over 19.5. On the 195th orbit. There is no explanation, no one is asking the question. I’m the only one asking the question.
PH: Okay, but what is the explanation for all the activity over the 19.5, because that’s where all the activity is.
RH: Ice crystals?
PH: What’s your explanation?RH: Our secret space program. They’re documenting and doing short readings on the spacecraft we developed. It’s got to be done on the ritual. It’s a religious ritual. It’s transcendent. If they work the methodology properly, they will live forever. That’s what they think. Isn’t that what every religion preaches? Believe in me and you will live forever? For the followers of Osiris
and Christ, the message is the same.
PH: And the reason why you say Osiris is because the space program is filled with Egyptian Symbolism ?
RH: All the major alignments are made to Osiris, i.e., Orion. Sirius is Isis.
PH: We thought all this was mythology.
RH: At some point, this may actually have been real, in the sense that we don’t know how it all actually began. Are we worshipping members of the family, a long long time ago? Where the mythology defines our gods? Anyway, bottom line – the whole story to me is a coded story, designed to tell us there’s a secret space program, NASA is irrelevant, it’s not where the action is, and there’s more to come.
PH: July, the seventh month, 1947.
RH: The actual code number is 19.47. It rounds up to 19.5.
PH: Why do you say ET is us? Who did you say is ET, aliens or us?
RH: ET. Extraterrestrial. It’s a designation of real estate; it’s where you hang your hat. Alien means different from others.
PH: You’re the only one who defines it this way, right? Because in the movie, ET was not us.
RH: But if you look at the language, it’s right on. You can be an alien and an extraterrestrial. He’s an alien.
PH: Is there anyone or anything else that’s like the aliens, like from Zeta Reticuli, and the ET is us from the future, from another planet like Mars or something? Is there anything written that I can look at?
RH: I have to think about it.
PH: That’s one thing that I heard you say that interested me a lot.
RH: Do you remember the film, The Day the Earth Stood Still?
PH: Yes.
RH: And they were in the hospital, and the lungs were the same, the heart was the same, and they thought it must be convergent evolution. Why were they saying in that film what they knew, that they had two different sets of extraterrestrials? You have aliens who are not genetically related, and then you have family, human beings who live in other places, on other planets.
It’s right out there in that film. Because Michael Rennie was representing the fraction of the human race that’s not here. Now if we fast-forward the film to 1969, Neil Armstrong lands on the moon and utters his famous phrase. There’s thirty years of controversy, which they tried to put their finger in the dyke and stifle…
PH: You mean “mankind” instead of man?
RH: Yes.
PH: Oh, that makes sense.
RH: Why? Because it was the message.
PH: Oh Richard. Only you could come up with this. It’s just semantics.
RH: “One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.” He was representing all of the Pleadians and the Nordics and all the other members of the human genome from all those planets all over the galaxy, and that’s in the book. In the final part, I decode that.
PH: Can I use this?
RH: Yes.
PH: Because most people I talk to think of ET as the odd looking greys.
RH: They’re ignorant. They’re taking their cues from Stephen Spielberg, who was misleading people.
PH: Do you know anything specific about who commissioned The Day the Earth Stood Still? I think it was commissioned by the government.
RH: I do too. Who was the guy, when he finally got his film after decades of us all pushing, who was the one guy Gene Roddenberry turned to for Star Trek the Movie? Robert Wise.
PH: So Robert Wise and Roddenberry and the vision of Roddenberry…
RH: Robert Wise is part of the in crowd. So was George Lucas.
PH: So they’re part of an in crowd of disclosure. The Insiders?
RH: Part of an in crowd that knows that the rate at which they are allowed to disclose may or may not be up to them.
PH: There’s an agenda.
RH: Nothing happens by accident.
PH: So the people who were on Mars are us, and then we came down on Earth, so it’s all us? Bradbury said that at the end of Martian Chronicles, that we are the Martians. They look in the water and he says look at that, they are us. He’s the only guy on my list of ten people that I
never met. I had a list of ten people in my book, and I met all of them by accident except Bradbury. He’s the only one I haven’t met yet. He lives in California. Of course, he’s not dead yet, so I might still meet him one day.
RH: He was on Coast to Coast recently. George was off and they had a guest host, and he wanted to talk to, of all people, Bradbury.
PH: So I can get an archive of it? I admire him so much. I love his work, especially Night Meeting, with the parallel reality kind of argument. At the very end he uses those famous words which I use a lot, let’s agree to disagree. Because there’s no winning that. Anyway, so the name of your book is?
RH: Dark Mission: The Secret History Of NASA
PH: That sounds very ominous. So we were talking yesterday about the Rutledge thing, because it comes out ironically sixty years after the Roswell event. These are secret missions?
RH: We now know, as the book documents, that these people are ritual obsessives. They can do nothing without the ritual, and the ritual involves these numbers, like 33, 60, 19.5, etc.
PH: When did the ritual begin? It had to begin before NASA, right?
RH: Oh, yes. It’s an ancient religion, an Egyptian stellar religion.
PH: So who decided they were going to do the ritual?
RH: The Masons. Now remember, the Masons took over NASA.
PH: The Masons took over America, too.
RH: Yeah, well, they were part of the foundation of the country. But in NASA you had two other groups who were competing for power. The Masons, the Nazis, and the magicians. Aleister Crowley, Jack Parsons, that whole wing.
PH: I don’t know what their involvement is, I’ll have to read your book.
RH: So they’re competing, and when Rutledge which of course is not his name --
PH: Robin looked up his name in an encyclopedia, and she saw that the words Armstrong, Rutledge, and Irwin are part of the Scottish --
RH: And remember what Irwin said was his big objection to the reality of this?
PH: No, what was that?
RH: There’s a bit of the soundtrack to Apollo 15 in there, which makes it seem like a fake. But it’s not, because the whole thing’s a fake. It’s all part of the message. It’s a complicated, multilevel code. Remember, I came out and I said, it’s all a code, including his name.
PH: Including the 19 and 20.
RH: Well, when you go back, the thing broke over You Tube about a month ago where somebody posted on You Tube from Africa ostensibly, the secret results of the secret NASA missions, Apollo 19 and 20, and that they went to this secret place on the far side of the moon that had been photographed by Apollo 15. So the first thing I did was to have my guys,
Laney and Troy, go to the archives. They’re both lunar people, they’ve done incredible lunar work.
PH: They had gotten you the original photographs, which had been severely altered.
RH: Well, we pulled them from a few different archives, and both sets of archives had been tampered with. It obviously had been done very early on, because now you can alter a photograph in PhotoShop and it’s seamless, you don’t even know. But this was like whitewash over the negative and when you brought it up in PhotoShop, you could see how it had been painted. Like somebody had taken a brush and painted the negative. So this corroborates
what somebody like Ken Johnson said, about people painting negatives, which bothered him because when you paint a negative, you destroy the information. Now of course the original negatives will never be seen. So I thought, okay, some other group is trying to hide it. So then, when Laney put his results up on his website to have his people look at it, somebody pointed out that the artifact on the Apollo 15 images were at 19.5 degrees. And then he said, Oh, come on, you’ve got to be kidding. So he measured it. It was right next to Psiakolskei, and Psiakolskei was at 19.5. Then I realized that the secret missions were 19 and 20. It’s absurd that there are secret missions, you can’t launch a Saturn 5 secretly.
PH: If we’re assuming that it comes out of NASA in Florida, but could it be launched from somewhere else?
RH: No, because you’d need a huge infrastructure. And they had to be trucked there by ship. And then the Russians would have known.
PH: The only reason I’m saying this is because some of the testimony from Charles Hall, he saw near the Area 51range, rockets go off. He said they were launching rockets that went up in that area in 1965.
RH: It couldn’t have been launched from there. One of the stories says 40 astronauts. Apollo could carry three. Forty went. Remember he claimed that they were communicating by a tyro satellite, which was an earth weather satellite. Well that’s more of the code. Nothing in this story is what it appears to be.
PH: So what’s the code about the tyro?
RH: I don’t know yet. You have to go look it up, I don’t have to do all the work, do I? He could have made up the name, why put up real information? So if you’re dealing with a code, nothing in a code is superfluous. It’s all part of the code. Each little detail, even if it looks like it doesn’t fi t, probably does. You just have to think at another level.
PH: So why do you think this came out now? These are military astronauts, this is hard for people to swallow.
RH: Why? We had the whole Air Force dinosaur program, which was a pre-shuttle shuttle. There was a space station, there were supposed to be three space stations.
PH: We have this wonderment about traveling among the planets and stars and discovering space, and when you shove the word “military” in there it gives the space exploration a whole other meaning to the wonderment that we had in the sixties when Kennedy said we would
shoot for the stars.
RH: That was a lie.
PH: What part was a lie?
RH: That it was non-military. There was never a part that was nonmilitary. In the book I show in NASA’s own charter, that it says it was part of the Defense Department.
PH: Wasn’t it supposed to be a civilian organization?
RH: That’s the public spin. And that’s the lie. This book is going to open a lot of eyes, because we document everything.
PH: It’s going to be hard for people to digest this lie.
RH: After Iraq, with no weapons of mass destruction, and a war that’s cost three thousand lives, for nothing? 70-80% of Americans believe that.
PH: The big question is what is NASA’s agenda?
RH: Initially, it was formed around available technology to grow as fast as it could, to get to the moon, and bring back technology.
PH: Alien technology?
RH: No, ours. Stuff left there by the family a very long time ago. Which these guys think they’re the heirs to, that it’s their stuff. And they think they’re the bloodline that deserves to have sole access. They’re not telling anybody else. It’s all about, “they can’t have that, that’s mine.”
PH: Is that alien technology, or our ET technology? Is it an either/or, does it have to be?
RH: The fact that they act like it’s theirs – remember, we’re talking about elite bloodlines, families, secret societies to think they’re special, they’re related – it’s about who owns it. That’s the attitude. No one is admitting, nor will they ever want to admit, that there’s more family. That’s why the whole thing about Armstrong’s first line is so important.
PH: They don’t want to admit that they’re aliens, they just want --
RH: ETs, not aliens. It’s the ET part they’re covering up, that we’re only one subset of a bigger mankind.
PH: But even the ones that don’t look like us, that are kind of small, and inbred, those are not from another planet?
RH: A jury can make anything out of it.
PH: Genetic engineering can have worker bees.
RH: There are all kinds of models.
PH: So in this model, it’s all us. Those people are the past. So are we looking at what could be their future?
RH: Well, the stuff is there from the past.
PH: I have a lot of stories where US from the future comes back to tell us that, and it gets very tricky.
RH: Telling you stuff and being able to transmit technology are two different things. Information may be able to travel through time, but physical objects may not.
PH: So we’re dealing with an ancient past that is us, and we’re just reclaiming our stuff .
RH: Well I think that’s what they think. Because they act very territorial, very provincial. Like you can’t have it, that’s mine. And when Kennedy tried to share it, they killed him.
PH: Why did Kennedy want to share it with the Russians?
RH: Yes, as with one planet. Because the planet almost killed itself with nuclear war. He came a whisper away from the Cuban missile crisis. So he and Khrushchev realized they needed something bigger to get everybody to stop fighting each other. There are many reasons people are in it for because it’s never been about UFOs. Particularly now that Walter Haut has risen from the grave and has given them what they’ve been looking for; that he saw the alien bodies in Roswell.
PH: You are right Richard. We are still a primitive tribe fighting over that scrap of land, over ideologies, over everything. It is nuts!
RH: Are we getting a real look into the field?
PH: So Walter Haut – and you think that’s a program, sixtieth – and you expect more this year?
RH: Is the Pope Catholic?
PH: So the ultimate agenda for NASA is to get back the stuff they think is theirs in the first place.
RH: Yes.
PH: Now does all of NASA know this, or just part of NASA?
RH: No the lies are different at every level. It’s in the book. Originally, in 1958 – remember, the space program began as a competing set of military eff orts. The Marines, the Navy, the Air Force, they were all competing with each other to go to the moon, launch satellites, beat the Russians. The services have always competed.
PH: What Ex Canadian minister of Defense Paul Hellyer said he was doing in the sixties was a monumental task of joining all the services together. One service, one thing he said because in America they were all fighting each other.
RH: So what Eisenhower did, obviously on the recommendation of people pulling the strings behind the scenes, was to create a separate space agency outside of the military services that would be technically still under the national security directives. The National Security Council, the Pentagon, the DOD, but would look like it was civilian. In fact, it’s not. That was another
lie. It’s a cover. It’s always a cover.
PH: Eisenhower was the first one to put it together.
RH: Yes, in July of 1958.
PH: Eisenhower knew a lot.
RH: So what did he warn when he quit? At the end of his term, he warned against the military-industrial complex. He saw the coming Fascist state. And he obviously was forced to do things that he was trying to warn people about.
PH: Do you think part of that is because you believe the meeting he had with aliens?
RH: I don’t know. Eisenhower ostensibly met with aliens on a golfing vacation, he suddenly had to go for a dentist appointment, he was gone for several hours and nobody watched So what did he warn against when he quit? It has happened.
PH: This cover-up is so deep and involves so many people; I will be surprised if they ever come clean. I am looking forward to your book, Richard.
